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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:43:00 -
[1]
I fundamentally disagree and I think you are being overly dramatic about it Jade .
The use of "shadow" organisations to conduct either espionage or warfare is an integral part of the game.
They risk their ships and modules and skills and require funding and time and effort to develop to any half-decent level for "success", or even being able to fight at all.
Those that are created entirely spuriously (nothing ever happens, no fighting, nothing) are already slated for removal due to the implementation of "War charges" (its already on the list).
Tracking of alt ownership and such like is not required. Just infiltrate the corp and find out yourself. It is easy enough to do and requires only as much time and effort as those who make these corps and alts to fight with put in themselves.
If you follow the logic to its heart you would realise why people make an alt-corp to wage war instead of hiring a mercenary corp. Therein lies the real problem; the inviability of doing just that.
All this other talk about it being "cowardly" etc is, well, its just a bit narrow minded imo.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:19:00 -
[2]
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I These are just noob characters with a few hundred thousand skill points.
Oh nice one. 
Now a war is *wrong* because those fighting it don't have *enough* skill points.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:46:00 -
[3]
The point was always spurious until people sit down and considered what they are saying.
If its *wrong* that you can fight others within two weeks of training then you have to stop that globally. It matters not if its an alt, a main character, or a second account. Unfortunately most here dont seem to want to consider what they are really saying.
Creation of a class system is unfair, unrealistic and purly selfish in motivation.
Any of these people who do fight, be it an alt or a main character have the right to do so and their relative level of skills is entirely and absolutely irrelevant to the issue.
Poorly thought out arguements and alterior motives do not make a good arguement. It is up to those with working grey matter to see the relevance of the above.
Dust Puppy - you are no longer even talking about alts but moved way out into every area of the game and are fundamentally saying one thing and one thing only - same as Jade ; "This is unfair."
My counter point is simple: Show me where any of the complaint doesnt also apply to legitimate characters, mains of newbies or second accounts or where there should ever be a limit on PvP due to total skill points. I think you will find you cant make any good arguements for that case.
And until that time I suggest people differentiate clearly between a selfish complaint over a legitimate gameplay issue.
Lower clones cost less - so what? It, once again, is not an alt-specific issue, much like most of the posts here.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:58:00 -
[4]
Forgot to add:
I will happily sign up to complain at legitimate alt-specific issues. I've no wish to sign up to a general rant on alts that hasn't taken the time to consider the underlying issues or the global impact of some of the called for changes and so-called problems.
Just remove "alt" and replace it with either "newb" or "2nd account" and the glaring irrelevance of many of the points should be obvious.
You want to talk about "alt problems" fine - do so.
This thread didn't start off doing that though nor has it headed in that direction.
Consider the implications before hopping onto the alt bandwagon willy-nilly. You can bet the devs will, so trying to make a case without applying relevant thought on the global implications isn't going to go anywhere.
/me shrugs
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 18:05:00 -
[5]
Quote:
Morkt,
Putting aside your natural tendency to say "white" when Jade says "black", this alt-war declaration crap is annoying, isn't it?
(Generally i tend to agree with Jade actually)
Yes - but that's not what is going on this thread. Jade ran out the full drama act and nobody stopped to consider the global implications of much of her rant.
Ill say it again - make it specific to unskilled alts and i'll sign up to it. Problem is that nobody has done that and instead we're suddenly seeingpeople who want "can fight/cant fight" distinctions by the age or skill of a pilot. Saying so isn't required, the implication is obvious.
Im going to go buy a second account and start a war on somebody - and who is going ot tell me i cant do that (or that its "Unfair") and bypass every damn thing here said about "alts" and still generate the exact same issue?
Thats the real point.
Its a global rant and isnt alt specific. I dont know how much clearer I can say that. Address the problem, not the symptoms.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 18:17:00 -
[6]
Wont disagree Joshua - I wish CCP had made it only 1 character per account from the start.
Unfortunately even if they had done that then people could still go out buy a second account and do the same thing.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 18:23:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 18/04/2004 18:26:25
Well i always wanted to see a "house" account/character system.
Every single account and char (and thus alt) you run has to be a member of the same "house" (Family/whatever i.e. you would all share the same surname {or other identifier} no matter what you did)
Also wont ever happen. 
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 18:37:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 18/04/2004 18:40:18
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Well everyone has two alts not everybody is nuts enough to buy two accounts just to have war. Exposing alts would not completely kill the problem but it would reduce it a lot of course if anyone have another solution I¦m all ears.
Aye - it might, but are those who are induced enough to do this via alts not also those most likely to do it via a second account?
Anyway - the issue with alts doesn't end with what they can be "abused" for, enough people have them for legitimate reasons be it RolePlayer, actor or as a permanent station manager in systems to deal with sales.
It's not the black and white "ban all alts and cure all EVE's problems" its been portrayed to be.
I dont like alts, i can wish we didnt have them, but im not going to pretend their removal will cure much of anything.
There are better approaches to the various issues that add to gameply rather than detract from it. Additional tools for tracking the activities of characters (not just the one-time-hit tracking we have now), additional tools to improve the bounty system and the capabilities of merc~ corps - you can compile a long list of good additions for everybody's benefit without ever having to talk about limiting peoples options or inducing a class player society.
Im quite happy paying my level 5 agent X million isk so that he records every movement and transaction of a "character" for X period of time... and that tied with the War-Charges system coming in would be a far better step in the right direction rather than flouncing about in period costume trilling "Woe is me!" and seeking the removal of all alts.
(See - i've been taking drama lessons  )
Edit: Ridd - it wasn't for this game.. was just a riff.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 02:44:00 -
[9]
Yeah the hacker type skills would add a lot, though there would needs be "anti-hacker" type skills also to make it harder (either that or anti-agent agents).
Far more sensible (and far more fun) approach to the "anonymous war" issue than a global outrage at alts.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 14:02:00 -
[10]
Quote:
The thing with alt-war-decs at the moment is they are untracable and attack without consequence.
Jade - remove alts and the issue is still there via second accounts or even main accounts. Stop fixating on alts as though it will cure your angst, it won't, they wont be removed. Why? ->
What you are doing is ignoring those who use alts for perfectly valid reasons from RP wars and events, through to alternative professions on one account for those who cant afford 2 or more.
You are clearly angry and frustrated but this isn't the right approach to get anything useful achieved. The problem lie with the war system (and other lacking gameplay areas) as clearly indicated.
Im not unsympathetic, we had the same issue (and i suspect suddenly will again because of this thread) but you're sowing unnecessary seeds of contention here.
- -
As far as forums are concerned I agree somewhat with Viceroy; you should only be allowed to post as one character from the account. But the same valid issues arise even with that.
Anyway your issue is with anonymity, not with alts per se, you just need to sit back and recognise the essential distinction (imo).
(And as far as anonymity is concerned I'm with you - so long as its made into a gameplay feature, meta-game or otherwise.)
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 14:33:00 -
[11]
Of course RP would be harmed by enforced "tagging" of characters. Its very blinkered to think otherwise, c'mon.
There are already perfectly good gameplay ideas for discovering information about all players, alts or not, without resorting to draconian enforcement of tags.
Your advocating limiting features rather than increased depth and gameplay and I don't like that. Never have, never will.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 14:39:00 -
[12]
Quote:
I do Morkt, but you oversimply it. I have talked about alt war corps taking business away from merc and assassin corps. I do belief that, and I have seriously talked to a lot of merc corps that can't make money in Eve because it is just too easy to brew up some numpty alts and go hassle people with war-decs. A player character main who is playing a merc full time cannot compete on the cheap nature of alts. This destroys a career option for many.
I would never hire a merc corp for the simple reason there is no way to measure or prove their success or failure - and that has nothing to do with alts at all. Nothing.
You persist in targetting the symptoms and not the underlying cause Jade.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 15:41:00 -
[13]
Quote:
If I am reading you right are you saying that if CCP implemented a flawless and unfoolable kill counting system you would be happy to use player mercs rather than alts to do the fighting?
Nope - i dont need the drama of it being "unfoolable and flawless". 
Corpses aren't proof (I sold my own for 12mil ISK once), indeed nothing you listed is proof, its all easily bypassed or created... just as is changing corp-name or dropping out of a corp to avoid a war. The "war" system is flawed throughout.
As i said, the problem isnt alts, no matter how much anybody tries to make it appear so, or believes so without applying relevant grey-matter time.
Removing alts will simply leave the problems untouched and having reduced avenues for RP, diversity and player experiences. The game will be poorer and the problems remain.
Good job it won't happen really. 
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 16:17:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 19/04/2004 16:24:27
Quote:
Quote:
Also, I don't see how creating a new account is gonna be a problem, they have all the right to do that, as long as they're willing to put money down for their laming.
I do agree with this. I would have far less problem with alt-war corps compromised entirely of 15 bucks a month second accounts from people paying CCP for the pleasure of hiding from consequences.
At least that way the general game environment and development effort is being funded by this kind of cowardice.
You're being overly dramatic again. Especially as one of those merc corps you hired and speak so highly of is my alt-corp.
I see you carefully avoid even mentioning the negatives and drawbacks and anything at all to do with the wider implications of this desire to remove alts Jade..and the more you do so the more you appear to be seeking a single minded objective of easing your corp war situation rather than a desire to add depth to the game and improve all-round gameplay and options.
Why should people legitimately taking part in RP or using alts as station managers or for events or for alternative professions suffer because a few people are too focused on selfish reasons to put their energy and time into developing solutions to the actual underlying problems?
And when the hardcore dedicated griefer creates his second account and does the same again will we then witness calls for even more draconian and unwarrented changes that even further limit player freedom to explore and enjoy this game? Only one account per credit card and household then eh?
Inevitable logic following the single-minded vision within this thread.
- - -
Dekar: Dont be ignorant, some people have 2,3,4 or 5 million point alts. Why should they suffer at all because of your lack of vision?
Go join the queue over there marked "lynch mob", there's free blinkers and torches on the table next to it. You seem to assume that every alt is a kestrel pilot looking to gank somebody - you are wrong. That's picture people are trying to paint in this thread though and they aren't interested in looking at any other picture at all.
And that is terribly sad.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 16:30:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 19/04/2004 16:32:09
Because im not the one out to remove the time and effort people have legitimately put into their characters Dekar - you are... and that is ignorant of their efforts.
Quote:
Excuse me, what part of "more paid accounts per player is fine" you do NOT understand? Is reading that hard?
Why should people pay more for something they have already paid for and have now?
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 16:40:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Quote:
Because im not the one out to remove the time and effort people have legitimately put into their characters Dekar - you are... and that is ignorant of their efforts.
Actually, that depends on your perspective. Right now, this one is laughable at best.
Speaking of "selfish motivations" and "missing the big picture", you sure as hell sound like a "I got one of those alts, so I don't want them removed" type of poster here. I think you outta lessen on the hypocrisy here.
Yeah - right. Morkt Drak is an alt. Happy now. Oh, and, yes, I mean that: He is an alt.
And, yes, im bloody well sure that makes me biased.
Now go back to trying to prove why alts should be removed and whilst you are at it tell my mate why his sons character has to be removed and he has to buy a new account for him also.
Oh and lets cancel the RP war we are having fun fighting with our other alts also - why?
Yes, actually - why? Why should my enjoyment of this game suffer because you want to see all alts remvoed without botheirng to resolve the real problems?
Please tell us - we really want to know.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 16:53:00 -
[17]
/me adds the bit that got chomped
I want to see a resolution to these problems without harming the ability for people to RP or just play other races/professions and use alts legitimately, including their kids characters and so on and so forth, but im STILL for seeing the problems resolved.
The "Kill all alts" lobby is out to remove entire avenues of fun and gaming for other people to serve their own desires... be they legitimate or not.
The difference is profound and, sorry, but the anti-alts lobby ahs to be the one that comprehensively proves there is no other way around the issues. why? Because we have all paid for what we have now and hundreds or thousands of people enjoy doing so.
I refuse point blank to allow jade, you or anybody else remove elements of this game from me because of a problem that will not be resolved by removing alts. I refuse by argueing against it and if then failing by simply leaving the game.
It really is that simple. Jade doesnt want her fun ruined by alts and neither do I. Problem is her answer to the issue causes me and others direct harm. Mine doesn't cause harm to others but increases gameplay and options.
Pick your own philosophy to follow at will.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 17:03:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Edited by: Dekar on 19/04/2004 17:01:03
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You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk. Further information on account transfers can be found in the EULA.
I think this one is self explanatory. I didn't think you had it in you to make a good argument, Morkt. But I guess you just debunked yourself.
You saved me a tiny bit of trouble.
Btw, I'd settle for a reset of all the alts and increasing the training times to * 3 for them.
Letting your children play a character is not a breach of the EULA for the simple reason that you dont need to share any passwords with them.
Feel free to actually address some of the points with something other than sillyness and you might make progress.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 17:19:00 -
[19]
I didnt say they didnt harm you Jade.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 18:11:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 19/04/2004 18:17:09
/me is pondering this as he thinks that might very well work
Thoughts (will add)
Need to allow RP Wars via alts? If os just have a yes/no switch for allowing wars with "negative rated corps". RP war would switch both to yes?
Ok - if so, do they then get picked on by numpties? Mebbe.. so..hmm.. OK RP war will always be consensual wont it? (has to be or its not RP really).
So why not a flag for allowing consensual RP war instead (ie RP wars are only actioned where both sides agree to it - and get rid of the yes/no otpion).
hmm
/me goes away to ponder some more.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 18:24:00 -
[21]
k.. so the Corp CEO would know somebody was an alt or not (negative rating)... but not whos alt it was.
Is that an issue?
Makes corp thefts harder (have to explain why you are an alt joining in the first palce).. seems ok to me, but, would that just shift corp-thefts to exclusive new accounts?
Well - does anybody care? The biggest corp thefts are by main characters anyway (so far)...so.
Spies - same thing. Becomes the profession of main chars, or corps foolish enough to allow alts entry to the corp info/forums/unregulated chats. Harder - sure - unreasoanble - not really.
Hey - you know what - that might work lorna ;-0
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 18:36:00 -
[22]
Quote:
If you have three characters which ones are mains and which are alts?
Maybe we should be given the option of declaring 1 character as a main and the other as alts?
Or the one with the mos sp's in the main.....
I thought the same thing Joshua... If you go down the route of it being a declaration (tick this box to make this character your main) - you would need a timer penalty of some sort or it becomes meaningless.
What are the problems with making it associated with the char with the most points anyway?
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 18:40:00 -
[23]
Quote:
1. New players - if they are like me, they will go through a few characters before settling down and maybe also join several corps at once to get a feel atwhich character to take further. At this stage corp recruiters becoming even more paranoid than now would never accept them.
We are that paranoid already Im afraid - we dont allow anybody who has alts to join us.
We would also view somebody who was in multiple corps as a serious security threat. "Innocent" or not, wouldn't allow them to join. Same if they had a second account (they told us about).
TBh have the "this is an alt" (not a "This is player Xs alt") would alleviate some paranoia..no? YOu would know - thus no need to be paranoid about it.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 18:48:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 19/04/2004 18:49:39
Yeah - im also a "technical alt" - the "main" is the founder of our corp.
Anyway - is there any issue with using just skill points as the option? Under what circumstances would a main character not have the most skill points?
Edit - and, yeah, old sig was waaaaay better.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 19:02:00 -
[25]
Quote:
by the same regard wouldn't it look just as suspicious if say someone like me who's been in the n00b corp my entire time playing wants to join a corp (no I personally don't, not unless there was a really really good reason, but I do know someone who did recently who's played at least as long as I have)
doesn't a 6+ month old "n00b" scream alt to you?
Well - we just look at their standings etc to see what theyve been up to. TBH thats the ideal sort of person we look for (as we want traders/runners)
Nothing supsicious about it at all so long as the standigns show they ahve been active with it.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 20:54:00 -
[26]
Ok - back to any issues with Lorna's idea:
Is there anything wrong with defaulting "main" to being the character with the most skill points? (its the simplest way to do it afterall?)
And : any other issues? (If not its pretty much a wrap isnt it?)
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 21:36:00 -
[27]
Athule - go back a bit and read Lornas idea - its far simpler tbh and, so far, without major flaw.
The only addition noted too date is the ability to allow consensual RP wars which bypasses any restrictions.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.19 21:59:00 -
[28]
Added to it with reference to RP-consensual wars.
Still cant see anything of major issue wrong with it either.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.20 16:26:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Athule Snanm
Originally by: Morkt Drak
Athule - go back a bit and read Lornas idea - its far simpler tbh and, so far, without major flaw.
The only addition noted too date is the ability to allow consensual RP wars which bypasses any restrictions.
Bah, reading before posting indeed! What sort of half-arsed forum ***** do you think I am!
The major flaw I see in Lorna's idea is that it only addresses the corp-war thing. There are plenty of other things going on that people could happily petition if they knew they were being done by alts as a way to avoid consequences. It's only possible to do this if alts are 'outed' in some way. The easiest way of doing this would be to display a % of skill points, updated during DT only to save strain on the DB.
I agree to the point, but not the method.
I'd like to see Lorna's idea implemented and then, for our point, see the ability to track character information/activities through an agent:
High level agent who you cna hire to track and record a pilots movement and trade over a period of time. (log in/out, trade with whom, isk to/from whom etc).
That give plenty enough info (combined with another such agent locked onto the "suspect main") to elicit enough information to make relevant decisions.
Of course would also like an anti-agent agent who cna kill/confound/protect against the above.
I like "spying" and the agent system can be used in very much more detail to facilitate it as a gameplay feature. The bottom line for almost all "alt" activities, especially the nefarious ones, is that the main can remain anonymous.
Removing anonymity, even the possibility of it, has been shown to be enough to counter large amounts of "casual griefing" in all MOG/MUDs. From the very first cyber-rape (Mr Bungle) through to SWG, Habitat and beyond, anonymity has been shown to be the catalyst for grief activities. Removal of anonymity, or the possibility of such, deters many.
Make it a gameplay feature rather than a GM responsibility. I'd always rather see new features than limitations.
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